The Psychology Behind High-Performance Leadership — Sébastien Page

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[SPEAKER_01]: It used to be, oh, I'm going to only work with King Kardashians of the world, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And basically, influence from marketing was more celebrity marketing than true influence from marketing in that sense.

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[SPEAKER_01]: These guys would be basically human billboards, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: They would be advertising for products all the time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, a lot of people from that question, the authenticity of these creators, and you know, how genuine they were in the way they were backing this product, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's the old way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What we've seen work really, really well, the ability to work with large volumes of tiny influencers, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of reaching out to a tiny volume of large influencers, you do the opposite, you go the long tail of the extent.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Jason Mark Campbell Business Podcast, where we explore what it really takes to sell, lead and grow a business, and ultimately live well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: In every episode, we go beyond tactics to discover how entrepreneurs and leaders across different sectors are growing with love, impact, and integrity.

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[SPEAKER_00]: welcome back to the Jason Mark Campbell podcast, super excited about the conversation we're going to have today for those of you who are trying to reach your ideal customer.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now marketing plays such a beautiful and powerful role for the success of any business.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, I'm somebody who's biased in sale, but the sale happens when you get the right people in front of you to even start that conversation marketing plays that role.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Regardless of the business that you're in, there's a lot of different channels you can consider.

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[SPEAKER_00]: when you're doing your marketing with the traditional brick and mortar, just having people show up at your front door, but in the age of the internet, a lot of things changed, social media marketing, paid advertising, SEO.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And more recently, there's been a rise.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'd say I started hearing this word much more in the last five years, maybe ten, but truly in the last five years, it seems to have become a medium that has been buzzing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard about it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've actually not used it systematically, quite that much, but I've been aware of its potential.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like it might be one of the most underutilized channels for any emerging business that wants to get traffic from the right kind of sources that brings their actual clients to the front door.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And this mysterious marketing channel, I'm talking about influencer marketing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We've heard about influencers, we've seen influencers love them, hate them, they are a powerful medium for the most expensive and important currency we are seeking today, which is people's attention.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're being scattered, we're being bombarded with advertising messages, we're seeing the cost of paid advertising to go up.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So what does this medium hold?

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[SPEAKER_00]: How can we use it as a platform to help us get the right eyeballs to our place?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so excited because the conversation we're going to be having today is with the co-founder and co-CEO of Uploins.

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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not familiar with Uploins, it's a leading global influencer marketing social commerce SaaS platform.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's quite a mouthful.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How I see it myself is it's the go to destination for brands to meet creators that want to promote them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that marketplace becomes so powerful for getting the right ideas to be spread through all the different people out there who are looking to spread these ideas and the monetization can be shared amongst them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about what does this look like, how mature that marketplace is and how we can go and identify people to help us

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[SPEAKER_00]: buying more eyeballs to come to our business.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's going to be two big parts of this conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: One of them is that I want to talk about influencer marketing and as a whole, and we're also going to talk about uploads as a platform to see how it can support us to reach our goals if it is a right fit.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so Vivian, welcome to the platform.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to have you here and speak about influencer marketing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me Jason in a beautiful intro.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, well, look, you guys are all over the world.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You're the biggest ones out there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're talking about New York, Paris in Leon, Geneva, and you've helped so many e-commerce brands, large companies be able to get the message out about their products and services through the help of influencers.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd be curious about your own story.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what got you into understanding that, okay, this is the opportunity.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is the problem in the marketplace and we're the ones to fix it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's actually a bit of a embarrassing story.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So Apple is an advantage for this, but prior to starting up fluency, my co-founder Kevin and I, we started e-commerce companies.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we knew nothing about e-commerce.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was particularly a men's worth fashion brand.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we knew nothing about men's worth fashion, either.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the product that we decided to choose was particularly a neck ties, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So neck ties, because it's easy to ship, as no sizing issues.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We have been a little smaller inventory yet, I get it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and tons of nobody or styles anymore, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And which was true already 15 years ago, I think you and I are perfect proof of that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't worry, even the tie on my own wedding date, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Case in point, we struggled to sell these styles with a traditional mocking methods, add words, you know, SEO and so on.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we tried everything else under the sun, the one thing that did work and eventually allowed us to get rid of our inventory was to reach out to at the time bloggers, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And reach out to them, send them an ecti, and the review would bring in traffic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He would bring in conversions, that's how the story sort of closed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But that was a very powerful moment for us because we realized a couple of things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Number one, that mechanics, it was not quite hit cold influence from marketing at the time, but that's very much what it was.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It worked, it can work for any brand potentially, if done right, however, and that was the big one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was incredibly time consuming.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you had to find these folks on Google.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You had to find their email address and the wheeers or wherever it was.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You had to dig them for review, send them a product, full up a hundred times and so on and so forth.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's when we had the realization that, you know, this is powerful, but at the same time, we did not be nice to have a technology platform that could do this for you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's when we set out to put together a team to start up with.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I love that it's powerful, but a pain in the ass.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great way to put it there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and this is how I always seen influencer marketing because it's like, okay, you have, there's a lot that goes into playing to Wanting to get started there like, who do you work with how do you set up the country like when I think of paid advertising like I know I go to Google or I go to meta And they tell me how they rules that the game work and I decide if I want to play.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll spend the dollars.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll see them results So it's a very predictable experience and I think one of the things that intimidated me from going into any kind of influencer marketing has always been like

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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels unpredictable.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels unmeasurable.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like I don't really know where to get started and the rules are completely fluid.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So as a small business, I don't know if I have the time that I want to set the rules and understand if they are part of the idea.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's just almost too many variables that it makes me freeze and go like, I'm going to go to paid advertising.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that's probably a sentiment that you saw across the board.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's a sentiment that I've definitely seen.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's also becoming less and less true.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As time comes by, as the industry matures, as more technology tools coming to life and so on.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So definitely not the first one to have this impression.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The other big one that we get is scalability, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you have a campaign that really crushes it on adwords or meta hats or whatever it is, you can easily scale it to whatever the maximum potential of that keyword is, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: But technically, I'm influenced marketing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's used to be that you would have to work to invest 10 times the time as well, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's less and less true and happy to double click on that as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, when you spoke about your own case, you were talking about e-commerce.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, if I think of influencer marketing, I think of the people that are like, oh, look, I have this product.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They get to showcase the product.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I can see it's success in that space, but are you seeing case studies of influencer marketing, working beyond the e-commerce space and other industries?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Just so it can open up the potential for anybody who might be thinking, well, I'm not an e-commerce, so maybe this isn't relevant to me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's true that e-commerce that's where we decided to really invest.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's, uh, you can ever call it luck or entrepreneurial genius.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll let you be a judge of that, but late 2019, we decided to really make that pivot towards social commerce.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We saw a lot of platforms investing in what we eventually become social commerce native features.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We saw Shopify being huge and we did that move just prior to COVID.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, we ironically benefited a lot from COVID in the sense that you accelerated e-commerce for a lot of populations and we were on the receiving end of that, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So timing was definitely great here and that one of the ways we differentiated from the rest of influence from marketing platforms out there was a bunch of them right I think if you type influence from marketing crunch-based is over a thousand results now.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely a crowded space, but yeah, that's where we decided to make the bet and it's been it's been good for us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's definitely over verticals as well and platforms that that, you know, that's specialized in other things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is still a lot of influence from marketing plays that are being made to maximize awareness as opposed to conversion, so more of a top of the funnel kind of approach, and I've heard to generate foot traffic, you know, like a Sephora, for example, the big one, or uni lever, and the catalog of brands that they have, they don't necessarily have a huge e-commerce play, you know, it tends to be more brick and mortar retail, you know, coming all-mart and bioproducts, for example, so you know it's how to stay top of the mind, and we guys obviously have been killing it with influence from marketing, so

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[SPEAKER_01]: I would say it can benefit a lot of folks.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We've seen more and more B2B influence from marketing happening as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously some different platforms, very different playbook, and that's less of what we do, but we've seen that becoming big as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be curious to know if there's a particular type of clients or a business, is it based on size or based on values?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is there a type of person?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, hey, you know what?

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[SPEAKER_00]: This actually might not work for you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I would say anything that's not consumer-oriented, so B2B or not going to be the best people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we do have a very, very large sizeable influencer database on, you know, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok and Pinterest, Twitch and so on, but not on LinkedIn, for example, and so that makes us not the best fit for that, for sure.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And what's the number one?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Number two, like I said, we invested a lot of features and a lot of roadmap allocation towards being very good at affiliate sales.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you are not on one of a major CMSs, like Shopify, WooCommerce, Macento, and so on, big commerce, we might not be as strong as it is, well, but I would say if you are selling online regardless of the vertical, if you are using one of the major CMSs.form, we're going to be great for you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'll step away from uploading to maybe talk about influencer marketing as a whole.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like have you seen some people that is like, oh yeah, influencer marketing probably doesn't run.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking some sort of like commodity or is it, well, shady businesses that don't have a good product obviously.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, obviously.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No, obviously.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's very risky bad to make if you don't have a very good product because a lot of influencers will tell the truth regardless, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Especially for seeding campaigns when you send a product to a large volume of influencers and influencers will tell you what they think because they're not receiving all the compensation rather than the product and so yeah, that can backfire a big time

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[SPEAKER_00]: I remember there was this technology that came out and it was called the rabbit.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was this AI assistant and it was just like a pin that you would put and you would press a button and it was supposed to like over food for you and then they send it to this super tech reviewer guy and he's like the biggest guy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like marquee, I forget his name, yeah, yeah, I know he's a clever guy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Full guy's name is like yeah, so he's like he's always doing

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I guess that's a risk for brands is like 100% product isn't ready and you put it in the hands of a guy with influence whatever your product is it's going to be put in In the shine light, if you're ready you're ready or not right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know I guess influence marketing that since is an unplifier right and so If it works is going to be fantastic if it doesn't you're exposing yourself to to some throwbacks 100%

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[SPEAKER_01]: We've seen that also, you know, when there's a little bit of a phase, we see a little bit of a gold rush towards influence from marketing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So when there was a lot of crypto NFT plays, we've seen that backfire quite a lot as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why we tend to be very restrictive with some of folks we work with depending on industry for that reason, exactly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But also sometimes for compliance reason, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because we're going to be paying creators on behalf of the clients as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we want to make sure it's an industry that we can laughfully pay, so nothing to about co-related or, you know, or other industries that can be touchy, you know, e-cigarettes and things of at nature.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, sometimes you have to navigate a little bit those things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So in my head, there's a part of me that says, okay, influencers marketing is really great for amplifying.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I need to have my product somewhat ready, like that if I put it out in the right hands of somebody that can take it to the next level, make sure that product's ready.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think in my head, if I was going to give influencer marketing a try, I would have probably started with paid ad, so that if something comes back negative, I can like dial down immediately, like cut the flow, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the things I find interesting with pay, but perhaps there's another perspective.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So instinctively, you absolutely correct, but what we've seen is some brands work with influencers, not just as amplifiers, but as seed investors, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Then we'd go to the creators saying, hey, have this product, you know, probably we can do a lot better, but you're an expert in that niche in that vertical.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to give you a half a person on my cap table, in exchange of, you know, your feedback, and whenever it's ready or whenever you feel in the product strongly enough, then we can go to market together, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is such a fantastic

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[SPEAKER_01]: new thing, I'm saying new, it's already a few years old, but a reasonably new development in industry that makes it so much more powerful because these creators, they've seen all of your competing products, they have that in their hands, they know what they like, they know what they're audience like, so they're very, very fantastic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, I've proxy for a focus group and plus they own the promotion.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I've done stream to that, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you have involved them into the co-creating, basically co-creating the product with them from that prototype phase where you have towards the mass market ready product version that you have, it's a fantastic weapon.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredibly powerful.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Ma...

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[SPEAKER_00]: And look, I'm very much in a marketing, so there's a part of me that's seen the rise of influencers.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now I feel I see influencers everywhere.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel there's an even a part of me that might be at a thinking like, oh, I have like an influencer exhaustion, but that might be because I'm on the inside.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening in the industry here is that a global feeling or is this still growing massively?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's still growing massively by all metrics, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: On the supply side, there's more social media users are spending more time every day The younger population is increasing as well So from a quote-unquote inventory perspective, it's still growing massively But on the demand side, which is more, more interesting.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We still have a chunk of unpen trading market.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, about 30% of brands don't do influence from marketing yet, but even though it's becoming a more and more systematic part of the arsenal of any brand CMO, it's still somewhere in full growth here as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But the fatigue, sorry, you're describing this real, and I think it's more a factor of...

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[SPEAKER_01]: the way it used to be done, as opposed to the way it should be done.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you allow me to develop that point, the idea is, it used to be, I'm going to only work with King Kardashians of the world, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And basically, inflint from marketing was more celebrity marketing than true influence from marketing in that sense, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because it takes more time to work with more creators.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to work with fewer creators with a bigger region.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to put a ton of money on it and they're going to promote that product, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so essentially, all the creators that we would know, even if we're don't follow them, that the folks are on platform in any way, shape or form, if these guys would be basically human billboards, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: They would be advertising for products all the time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of people from that question, the authenticity of these creators and how genuine they were in the way they were backing these products, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's the old way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What we've seen work really, really well, and that's only been made possible with technology platforms, such as influences, the ability to work with large volumes of tiny influencers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of reaching out to a tiny volume of large influencers, you do the opposite.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You go the long-tailed family accent.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that way, you reach out to a large realm of creators are very niche that no, and they might tell you no, they might tell you yes, if you tell you yes, usually that's a lot more credible.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, and we can never let that later probably, but what we've seen even more powerful is brands who already have a large presence, they have hundreds of thousands of consumers.

16:18.267 --> 16:29.355
[SPEAKER_01]: Finding influencers within that group is incredibly powerful as well because these creators They might have only a handful of thousands of followers, but because they Have spend their own money buying the product.

16:29.375 --> 16:45.126
[SPEAKER_01]: They believe in the product so much that they are In the situation where they can genuinely talk about the product and why we've found is that if he's folks are tend to be cheaper So you know a powerful pound someone who already loves your brand will ask less money even someone who doesn't switch makes sense But more importantly, they're gonna pay for better

16:45.866 --> 16:58.950
[SPEAKER_01]: So I like to say that we're in the business of generating our i4 clients and if you maximize the output, minimize the input, you know, input, being the cause of the output, being the performance, then you dramatically improve your r i4 client.

16:58.990 --> 17:02.771
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was found that to be a very powerful way to make it work.

17:03.796 --> 17:04.096
[SPEAKER_00]: nice.

17:04.776 --> 17:06.937
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm more accustomed to doing affiliate marketing.

17:07.158 --> 17:20.103
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I work with a lot of like digital products and like affiliate marketing was always a place you had to all the other people cross-promoting each other, then you could have your own clients be a partner and they could do some promotion and you know that's been something I have more experience with.

17:20.544 --> 17:29.868
[SPEAKER_00]: I've used platforms but it's still quite a relationship building on an individual level and so is there a significant difference between doing affiliate promotion versus influence of marketing?

17:30.948 --> 17:34.409
[SPEAKER_01]: I think of as an incredible amount of conversions between both industries.

17:34.849 --> 17:43.390
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't agree more, and we've seen players in the affiliate marketing space, you know, some of the platforms you touched on, making bets in the influencer space, and vice versa.

17:43.630 --> 17:55.012
[SPEAKER_01]: We certainly have added a lot of affiliate like capabilities, because from our e-commerce integrations, we're allowed to generate mass coupon codes, our custom to each creators, to go generate track lanes, to pull the sales,

17:59.993 --> 18:16.204
[SPEAKER_01]: There's certainly been some convergence, and yeah, I would say some of the quote-unquote traditional affiliate play that you described is still sort of a sport of its own, influence from marketing as its specificities and idiosyncrasies as well, but case in point it's at the end of the day it's a similar mechanic, right?

18:16.925 --> 18:20.889
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so for somebody who's listening to this being like, okay, this all sounds interesting.

18:20.909 --> 18:23.191
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I want to put I want to try influence in marketing.

18:23.491 --> 18:27.795
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I have to have a mindset that like, okay, I need to have a bit of money on the side or I need to have a certain amount of time.

18:28.195 --> 18:36.463
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm like, what would be kind of the minimum viable product or minimum viable campaign that I should plan for if this is something I'd like to try if it works for me.

18:37.363 --> 18:46.490
[SPEAKER_01]: You can definitely try without a platform at first, right, which is the opposite of what I should be saying probably, but I genuinely believe that you should try to do it manually.

18:46.910 --> 18:51.033
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you're heating a scale, a capacity issue, then you get ready to platform.

18:51.494 --> 18:57.758
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say that the most clients we sign, we sign them, not against a competitor against a spreadsheet, right?

18:58.339 --> 19:02.582
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think with everything we see with AI, you can do some really cool stuff.

19:03.002 --> 19:11.107
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying that because we also have an MCP, I would, you know, if you want to play around with cloud and query our MCP, you can already do some cool stuff without having full access to a platform.

19:11.627 --> 19:13.929
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I would do, I would do a few things.

19:14.549 --> 19:23.395
[SPEAKER_01]: I would email my clients, all of them, regardless, if I know wherever or not down social media, I would email or I would ping my social media followers.

19:23.735 --> 19:28.378
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have access to them, then you can order by order of number of followers or things like that.

19:29.038 --> 19:33.082
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would just offer something simple saying, hey, you know, would you be open to programming my product?

19:33.122 --> 19:34.543
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm happy to send you a freebie.

19:34.943 --> 19:38.326
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I can give you a custom coupon code so you can show your campaign.

19:38.846 --> 19:42.629
[SPEAKER_01]: I would try to do as much as I can to minimize the cost.

19:43.070 --> 19:49.215
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, and find a value proposition that is enticing enough for the creator, but the sentiment doesn't cost me as much, right?

19:49.635 --> 19:59.881
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's a bit of a spectrum, I like to talk about it as a spectrum in the sense that if you were to go to all these guys saying I will give you a million dollars to promote my product 100% of them will say yes.

20:00.381 --> 20:04.103
[SPEAKER_01]: On the flip side if you say this, I'm giving you nothing, please promote my product.

20:04.543 --> 20:07.365
[SPEAKER_01]: A very small percentage if any will say yes, right?

20:07.725 --> 20:19.832
[SPEAKER_01]: So your job is to find something that's in between, that doesn't cost you too much, but the same time is cool enough, you know, incentivizing enough for the creators to actually say yes and promote them and have the interest of our line.

20:20.252 --> 20:27.817
[SPEAKER_01]: While I like with, you know, coupon codes is it's hard to argue the attribution, you know, you were talking about affiliate, sometimes it's an attribution issue.

20:28.217 --> 20:33.760
[SPEAKER_01]: If that coupon code has been redeemed, it can reliably assume that it's been generated from that specific creator.

20:34.080 --> 20:37.943
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's leaked, usually you know you have ways of knowing where we're not a couponizer has been leaked, right?

20:38.383 --> 20:39.003
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one thing.

20:39.623 --> 20:43.506
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you can throw in some, you know, some upfront payment for logic creators.

20:43.526 --> 20:47.268
[SPEAKER_01]: You can play it by ear, but I will try to find a unit economy that makes sense.

20:47.388 --> 20:47.628
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning.

20:47.968 --> 21:02.682
[SPEAKER_01]: My product costs me x to produce y to ship, so my acquisition cost per creator is z and the generate on average alpha conversions for a GMV of beta and so my ROI is this right.

21:03.262 --> 21:07.705
[SPEAKER_01]: And once you have that degree of understanding, that already opens you many doors.

21:07.805 --> 21:10.126
[SPEAKER_01]: And you say, okay, this is my sort of creator ICP.

21:10.146 --> 21:12.168
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my ideal creator profile.

21:12.508 --> 21:14.009
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the folks I want to go after.

21:14.689 --> 21:18.912
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you sort of run out of the ones, you can find easily by yourself.

21:18.932 --> 21:21.153
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when you're ready to graduate to the big leagues.

21:21.213 --> 21:24.155
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, invest a little bit of money into a platform to really scale your program.

21:25.645 --> 21:25.965
[SPEAKER_00]: cool.

21:26.426 --> 21:32.053
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's definitely something I want to go and consider, especially with the company I'm working with a lot right now, which is around like breath work.

21:32.093 --> 21:32.974
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pretty cool app.

21:33.014 --> 21:34.055
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pretty cool protocol.

21:34.075 --> 21:35.096
[SPEAKER_00]: It gets people to breath work.

21:35.497 --> 21:38.700
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is probably a channel that I've vastly underutilized.

21:39.001 --> 21:42.825
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been mostly relying on paid ads and that's getting more expensive for user acquisition.

21:42.845 --> 21:44.367
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you

21:44.507 --> 21:48.749
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, what's a better channel that really creates that viral, and it's something that's such a cool experience.

21:48.789 --> 21:50.909
[SPEAKER_00]: So definitely something I'm looking into.

21:51.410 --> 21:57.812
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just wanted to piggyback on one thing you said, which is ads plus creator marketing is actually got sent, right?

21:57.872 --> 22:03.594
[SPEAKER_01]: We see a lot of clients being incredibly successful by doing one thing, which is they run a creator program.

22:03.614 --> 22:09.076
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say if you have a 100 creator post of our being life, they look at which of these actually perform the best.

22:09.556 --> 22:20.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we secure the rights, you know, by entering into an agreement with the creators so that they have commercial rights or the web pieces of content, and then they amplify the heck out of it on MetaHadStickTalk and everything, right?

22:20.968 --> 22:30.237
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's such a cool way to stretch your marketing dollars because then you have a top-performing piece of content that looks and feels still genuine because it is because it came from a creator.

22:30.777 --> 22:42.763
[SPEAKER_01]: You have legally secured the right and you can use it as a way to create new ads vertical or to have a much better CPM or CPC or CPA or whatever metric you're looking at at the end of the day.

22:43.303 --> 22:46.185
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we have some clients who are incredibly successful with this.

22:46.608 --> 22:47.168
[SPEAKER_00]: very cool.

22:47.188 --> 22:53.553
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to give a little space for a plug, because I'm maybe curious about your story a little more, but we've covered so much about influence and marketing to me.

22:54.093 --> 22:55.955
[SPEAKER_00]: You've covered enough that makes me go a holy cry.

22:55.975 --> 22:57.816
[SPEAKER_00]: I probably need to go pay attention to this again.

22:57.836 --> 22:59.637
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I might be missing on a big opportunity.

23:00.017 --> 23:02.539
[SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to know that there are some steps I might be able to do myself.

23:02.559 --> 23:04.120
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't have too many costs involved.

23:04.140 --> 23:06.702
[SPEAKER_00]: Just putting my time, attention, and drafting something.

23:06.862 --> 23:09.744
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'd love to hear from you if somebody wants to use upfluence.

23:09.784 --> 23:13.327
[SPEAKER_00]: When is the perfect time for somebody to move into a platform like upfluence and

23:15.768 --> 23:28.075
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, regardless, if you're a very new brand or more established one, if you have done that's on a first step manually to, you know, that exercise of reaching out to creators, sending, you know, having them interested in your product, that probably means you're ready, right?

23:28.796 --> 23:30.157
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it's a question of budget.

23:30.597 --> 23:36.320
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're willing to put a lot of a work, you know, yourself, we have a sort of a freemium product.

23:36.380 --> 23:37.361
[SPEAKER_01]: They and people can use.

23:37.481 --> 23:38.642
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called Wednesday.app.

23:38.682 --> 23:40.003
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys can, you know, check it out.

23:40.043 --> 23:43.325
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a few influencers that you can reach out for free every month.

23:44.145 --> 23:50.569
[SPEAKER_01]: 3-4 ever so you know you can go crazy if you really want to bring the big guns so uploads.com, that's where all main product is.

23:51.090 --> 23:53.431
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're in the commerce I'm going to take that assumption here.

23:53.912 --> 23:57.354
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing you would do is you would plug your CMS, so we'll no shopify for example.

23:57.854 --> 24:04.339
[SPEAKER_01]: From that automatically we would cross-reference your database of consumers with our database of creators to identify about overlap.

24:05.099 --> 24:09.042
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, we would have our own AI, which is called Jace, created campaign for you.

24:09.062 --> 24:10.803
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously we will ask you a few questions.

24:10.943 --> 24:12.685
[SPEAKER_01]: You will have your brief ready to go in seconds.

24:12.705 --> 24:14.386
[SPEAKER_01]: You will have influencer selected in seconds.

24:15.147 --> 24:23.633
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that's a very powerful thing, because you are really to automatically ready to automatically reach out to creators, but also to receive inbound applications from our marketplace.

24:24.033 --> 24:36.740
[SPEAKER_01]: So we really have these dual mechanic which is quite rare in the industry and means that you have folks coming to you, not just you having to reach out to folks, so it's a two way thing in that sense, and we found that to be very powerful as well.

24:37.681 --> 24:39.062
[SPEAKER_01]: And once you've done that, you can

24:39.642 --> 24:43.485
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be picky, you can choose a creator as you want to work with on what kind of conditions you can negotiate.

24:43.505 --> 24:53.914
[SPEAKER_01]: You can automate the seating, so because you've plugged your Shopify, you can select however many skews you want to make available for creators and so creators can apply saying, oh, I love to have this product.

24:53.934 --> 24:55.636
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my shoe size, this is my address.

24:56.356 --> 24:58.518
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can improve in the backend, make sure that includes life.

24:59.079 --> 24:59.779
[SPEAKER_01]: It is being sent.

24:59.819 --> 25:02.842
[SPEAKER_01]: It creates basically a zero dollar order on your Shopify backend.

25:03.623 --> 25:13.657
[SPEAKER_01]: And once you've done that, it creates a tomatically of a coupon code, it automates the back-and-forth with the creators, and then basically you're looking at the GMV go-up and the sales go-in, right?

25:14.118 --> 25:18.985
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how sort of a typical campaign would go if you have a little bit more means to have access to a full platform.

25:19.570 --> 25:22.031
[SPEAKER_00]: You've built something quite incredible, Vivian.

25:22.051 --> 25:24.552
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'd be curious about the journey itself.

25:24.672 --> 25:28.714
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, how long have you guys been operating since about 2018?

25:29.514 --> 25:30.375
[SPEAKER_01]: No, 2013.

25:30.635 --> 25:31.275
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

25:31.295 --> 25:34.216
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, technically, 2012.

25:34.236 --> 25:40.839
[SPEAKER_01]: We started working on a project when cooperated February 2013, as we were briefly discussing before hitting the record button.

25:41.320 --> 25:44.461
[SPEAKER_01]: We incorporated in the US, but the companies funded by French people.

25:45.081 --> 25:48.883
[SPEAKER_01]: I was five of us at first, which is probably entirely too many confunders.

25:49.564 --> 25:57.088
[SPEAKER_01]: One, a co-founder, walked away pretty early on in the life of a company, all these good, and we were still in a great relationship.

25:57.528 --> 26:03.912
[SPEAKER_01]: Another one was giving us five years of his life after that he needed to take some responsibility in the family business.

26:03.952 --> 26:05.713
[SPEAKER_01]: So we knew he had, he had,

26:06.613 --> 26:09.214
[SPEAKER_01]: A preemption date, I think that makes sense with us.

26:09.595 --> 26:14.937
[SPEAKER_01]: But still the other three of us are Kevin Alex in myself, Kevin and I co-COs Alex is CTO.

26:15.377 --> 26:17.899
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we've grown from zero to about 100 people.

26:18.859 --> 26:21.020
[SPEAKER_01]: We are around $20 million in revenue.

26:21.460 --> 26:24.422
[SPEAKER_01]: We've raised, I would say, remarkably a few...

26:24.942 --> 26:28.686
[SPEAKER_01]: I have ventured all those relative to some of our competitors of a similar size.

26:29.126 --> 26:36.814
[SPEAKER_01]: We've always been very nimble, very capital efficient, or you can call us cheap maybe, but that's how we've decided to match the business.

26:36.874 --> 26:40.918
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think in the kind of entrepreneur that's, you know, happily burns millions.

26:41.679 --> 26:47.565
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not that kind of person, so I'm very happy to be now leading a goring and profitable business.

26:48.626 --> 26:55.292
[SPEAKER_01]: and in such a cool space to write everything over rules of a game change every year so it's never a dull moment and you never get bored.

26:56.052 --> 27:04.840
[SPEAKER_00]: You highlight towards a business practice that might be more Silicon Valley style which is like, but is it acquire customers at any cost, burn the money fast, so you can scale fast?

27:05.280 --> 27:15.028
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds like that's something you might not have prescribed to and I'm wondering, you know, what are some of the benefits you've seen out of taking your approaches opposed to what could have been the common path in VC and scale for startup, all that.

27:15.805 --> 27:15.965
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

27:16.525 --> 27:26.230
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the first one is pure arithmetic, but we still retain a very large chunk of a cap table, like a funder's in NI, and that makes all the difference in a world that today, right?

27:26.290 --> 27:29.192
[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of governance, we, you know, we still have a majority in the board.

27:29.212 --> 27:33.254
[SPEAKER_01]: That allows us to have a great relationship with the one VC that we have on the board.

27:33.694 --> 27:41.017
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just so much more freedom in the way you manage the business day two day, and that's, but already makes a world of a difference.

27:41.778 --> 27:42.198
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one,

27:42.758 --> 28:10.908
[SPEAKER_01]: Number two, it doesn't force you to make quote-unquote stupid decisions, meaning the beauty about SaaS is that the metrics are very clear cut and everything makes sense, so you have your customer acquisition costs, your cac, you have your average revenue per account, you know if you divide one by the other, you know how many months it takes you to recover your cac, so you know it will cost you a little bit more money to acquire clients, but then you're going to be in the green and then you're going to make money and if your retention is high,

28:12.408 --> 28:32.505
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, if this is the beauty of recurring revenue, and it looks like a lot of SaaS companies are eventually backed, because of that land grab strategy that you just described, they are asked to have a time to recover a cat that's absolutely long like 12, 18 months, and so the company hemorrhage is cash for a year and a half sometimes, before they actually make that $1 back, right?

28:32.985 --> 28:35.107
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that it didn't make any sense to me.

28:35.127 --> 28:40.832
[SPEAKER_01]: We wanted our unit economics to be very sound and to be scalable in that sense.

28:40.892 --> 28:44.095
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that dictate a lot of your business decisions you're going to make.

28:44.355 --> 28:45.576
[SPEAKER_01]: How are your customers?

28:45.596 --> 28:47.558
[SPEAKER_01]: And how are you going to invest a lot into?

28:47.978 --> 28:58.662
[SPEAKER_01]: Pay channels in which you may have a lot of control because there are also more money, especially in the space where if there is a lot of competition for VC dollars, you know, that tends to escalate the CPCs and deteriorate the unit economics.

28:59.263 --> 29:04.565
[SPEAKER_01]: Or are you going to make different choices, you know, working with partners or working on, you know, organic SEO and things like that, right?

29:05.105 --> 29:20.267
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think this has forced us to make decisions that tend to be better for the long term, maybe not as good for the next quarter, and next board meeting, but that allowed us to have a very sound and solid foundation for our business and that's part of our to where we are today.

29:20.687 --> 29:21.508
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, big congrats.

29:21.628 --> 29:22.730
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very excited about that.

29:22.970 --> 29:24.853
[SPEAKER_00]: And you guys have been a great platform to observe.

29:24.873 --> 29:30.521
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be curious to know on the influencer space you mentioned, like, almost every few years, the space kind of changes a little bit.

29:30.641 --> 29:36.509
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be curious to know, are there any trends that you're seeing or things in the future that we should pay attention to as business owners?

29:37.471 --> 29:37.671
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

29:38.058 --> 29:55.167
[SPEAKER_01]: 100%, so two of them we've already discussed because we're a great interviewer, one of the conversions with the affiliate, it's a big one, I would say many, many CMOs are going to expect to influence from marketing to be really done funnel and to have an hour in front of it and you know, you.

29:55.647 --> 30:05.492
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're open with influence from marketing being hard to measure sometimes, and I can't do it saying it's less or less true, but I think it's exclusively due to that, right?

30:05.972 --> 30:10.574
[SPEAKER_00]: That ability to track sales and to attribute sales to creator and to know what your ROI is and so on.

30:11.012 --> 30:19.536
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the first one we discussed, the second one that I flew in was the combining creator marketing with all the channels, including paid, I think it's been very powerful.

30:20.116 --> 30:34.242
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, to expand on that a little bit, I think just like any other marketing channel, you should not look at it in a silo, but more, you know, as the plurality of channels, are you going to market with and how they complement each other, how they can benefit each other.

30:34.883 --> 30:37.666
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, influence from marketing can be repurposed in so many ways.

30:37.706 --> 30:41.652
[SPEAKER_01]: You can take the content, put it on a new product page, you can put it on your Amazon store.

30:42.092 --> 30:47.659
[SPEAKER_01]: That's going to increase your conversion rate that's going to, again, more being for you back in that sense, right?

30:47.679 --> 30:49.282
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do ads with it, you can...

30:49.862 --> 30:50.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Publishing social media with it.

30:50.963 --> 30:55.668
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do a number of things that are going to be very positive and it's going to be a virtuous cycle.

30:55.708 --> 31:01.173
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I highly encourage looking at it not in a vacuum, not in a silo, but more as one more.

31:02.334 --> 31:05.016
[SPEAKER_01]: In French would say one more string to your bow, right?

31:05.156 --> 31:06.598
[SPEAKER_01]: Another thing that you can play with, right?

31:07.198 --> 31:13.363
[SPEAKER_01]: The other trends that we've seen, you know, is always a bit of a shift from platform to platform.

31:13.403 --> 31:17.647
[SPEAKER_01]: If years ago there was no TikTok, it's crowded out of thin air and of its 2 billion users.

31:17.667 --> 31:21.630
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, always be attentive to what's the cold new platform that's coming up.

31:22.110 --> 31:27.935
[SPEAKER_01]: I would encourage marketers to experiment early, because this vast sort of offering demand, thing that,

31:28.395 --> 31:46.942
[SPEAKER_01]: This fewer brands, at first, on a new coming social media platform, so you have less competition, it's probably easier to grab some eyeballs, and so I would really encourage to be nimble in that sense, and, you know, even if you're a great thing going on Instagram on TikTok and on YouTube, I would really encourage to tip and I out and try for new things.

31:47.402 --> 31:52.264
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes leveraging the creators you already have, because these folks tend to be actively saying, oh, you know,

31:52.604 --> 31:53.445
[SPEAKER_01]: What's this blue sky?

31:53.465 --> 31:54.046
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll try, right?

31:54.166 --> 32:00.572
[SPEAKER_01]: And so working with the creators you already work with to expand to new platforms can be in great way to deputors in the water.

32:01.312 --> 32:03.254
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I would stop at free.

32:03.334 --> 32:06.858
[SPEAKER_01]: I could talk about this all day, but I have as definitely cool new trends coming up.

32:08.717 --> 32:16.326
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I've started seeing is just this whole shift towards streaming becoming more popular.

32:16.466 --> 32:18.448
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that you guys are keeping a pulse on?

32:18.508 --> 32:20.431
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it something that a business has showed as well?

32:21.392 --> 32:21.652
[SPEAKER_01]: 100%.

32:21.972 --> 32:25.416
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were one of the first platforms to integrate with Twitch, for example, to illustrate that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is great because it's definitely gaining popularity, but I see this driving a certain type of audience that really really compliments specific types of brands to it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're in gaming, obviously, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you were, you know, at the time it was big in crypto or, you know, that consumer finance or betting apps or you're like, a lot of verticals I think play very well into the streaming subculture.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's definitely something we do, something we offer as a native capability to with our plants and something that is becoming increasingly important for short.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

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[SPEAKER_00]: If someone wants to really go deep into learning about influence on marketing, they want to make it something they could come and expert at.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What are the resources you would truly point someone towards so they could really go beyond the toe dip and go for the full body clunge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We have created a certification that's available on our website at fluens.com.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So there are a series of videos or you know, great resources, classes to go from zero to one and then further with some quizzes, you can actually confirm that you've understood the material and you can then share it on LinkedIn, that's one extra credential that you can have as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the weird thing is, you know, we are putting out this great technology which is one of the suite of tools that we've created and a lot of the times people didn't necessarily have the expertise to make the most out of it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we thought it was our responsibility as one leader in the space to educate the industry to the level that they can really use the leverage on technology to the advantage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what we've done.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This has been a great conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very glad we got a chance to have this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've always been curious about the influencer marketing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've always seen an appliance as one of the leaders in the space.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the fact that we could have this conversation talking about both the platform and the influencer marketing channel, really, really good stuff.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to encourage everyone to look.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's an educational path that exists for you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to put some links over for you to go check that out on Uploins.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's some free tools and a paid platform where you can really turn up the notch on influencer marketing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: and see how can this be a key driver in helping you grow the business to the next level.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I know for myself the biases that I always had is paid to have a change of grade for conversions, but I feel it's becoming less and less effective for getting the coldest of leads.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like those come from going on an external podcast having someone else speak about your brand and then they fall into your kind of remarketing pool and it's at that point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: that I find to pay to advertising works the most effective.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm trying to consciously shift budgets over into the different channels.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is one that, as you've mentioned, has become less of a maybe, and more of like, oh, I see the trend lines.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's a very exciting time to get into space.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now we're going to be resuming the conversations to see if I'll be able to see it be the right partner to be able to go do that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Vivian, honestly, great chat.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say a net, including words you'd like to share with the audience or considering influencer marketing or maybe even influencers, their platform destroys.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're happy to have your clients if you want to jump.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll make sure to work with my art marketing team to give any of your listeners a cool discount as well so that if you want to talk to our sales team and engage, you know, to have a little bonus.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it was the fantastic conversation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your thoughtful questions, Jason, and I had a lovely time as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: always a pleasure.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And for everybody else tuning in, hey, maybe this was a bit different because we're talking about a very specific channel, but I think it's a very exciting one.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't looked into it, and you think it's an channel that you want to explore, we've had the right conversation and the right next specs to take.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so we'll throw you in that direction as I know I'll be doing the same.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Much love and thank you so much.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Jason Mark Campbell business podcast and of course, keep selling with love.