Leadership and Sales in the Legal World - Tim Lupinacci

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[SPEAKER_01]: The legal profession viewed sales is something that, you know, you did in other industries.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't sell.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not sales people as lawyers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're here, you know, the client has a problem.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They come to us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We help them solve their problems, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about selling.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But of course, you and I know that we're selling every day in every way that we influence and we try to encourage others and to bring in new business.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Plug into the mind of the world's cutting edge innovators, visionaries and thought leaders, who are rewriting the rules of sales and success.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's your time to make an impact.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I am your host, Jason Mark Campbell, and this is The Selling With Love Podcast.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the selling with low podcast and I'm very excited about the topic that we're going to be discussing today because it's going to go outside of our traditional sales environment.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're actually going to talk about legal and leadership.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, we've had conversations around leadership many times on the show, but legal has not been one that we've explored too much.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very excited about the guest that I'm going to bring on today because he has been at the forefront of some of the biggest company restructuring since some bankruptcy filings across various industries, particularly in the health care sector.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He is the CEO chairman of Baker Donaldson.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the largest firms legal firms in the U.S.

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[SPEAKER_00]: and a man has actually worked on so many different corporate things such as REITs, Lender Services, Trustees, Copics, Brancorbsies,

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a world I know very little of and so I have this deep curiosity about how does it function at that level?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Is there room for selling with love?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And what are some of the misconceptions we might have around growing a business and involving legal, where most of what we know might be coming through the media and might actually not be so accurate?

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[SPEAKER_00]: He's created some initiatives while he was there, such as Women's Initiative Pathway to Leadership Committee.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He is writing his forthcoming book, which is every buddy leads, which is just around the corner coming out right now.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's helping people understand that leadership isn't a position or a title, but it's how you live and lead yourself every single day.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And more Tim, welcome to the show.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pleasure to have you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Jason, it's an honor to be here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You have spoken to me through your podcast and through your work about selling with love for a long time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited to be here and have this discussion.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm excited to have a conversation with you because as I mentioned, like even some of the words, I'm like, okay, real estate investment trusts doing bankruptcy like this all feels huge and before I get into that, you know, most people look at lawyers and might not think that selling or love is closely related.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd be curious to know about your approach when you got into the legal field.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're exactly right, Jason.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, both aspects of that selling and love are things that you don't hear a lot about in the legal industry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On sales, particularly, the legal profession grew up as a very honorable noble profession, which it is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But it was one that viewed sales as something that you did in other industries.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't sell.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not sales people as lawyers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're here, you know, the client has a problem.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They come to us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We help them solve their problems, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about selling.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But of course, you and I know that we're selling every day in every way that we influence and we try to encourage others and to bring in new business.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've really had to work with our colleagues here at Baker Donaldson in thinking about sales as an act of service.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If your client has a significant problem and you can introduce them into a colleague who has an expertise that can help them, that is a form of sales.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're selling your firm, you're selling your colleagues expertise.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But if you think about the context of helping them accomplish those strategic objectives, that's something that's a win-win for the client.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we really had to talk about when you talk about sales and selling what does it really mean and what does it look like in our profession.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I've had that aspect of it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But then, as you said, I mean, love and lawyers, I mean, other than, you know, you see that she said, in the media, there might be a movie, lawyers in love or whatever, but other than that, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a Jackson Brown song.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But the concept of love in leading in how you operate a business.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really foundational to how we've been able to have some success in a truly about that relationship with each other and how we build authentic relationships, respectful relationships.

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[SPEAKER_01]: how we can help each other to thrive and the collaboration together, the collective of us are going to help us do better if we're caring for each other, if we're clearing the path for others to succeed, then we can thrive as an organization.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that has taken some sales to convince people that that really can work.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's been a lot of what I've been trying to do since I've been in the world of the city over the last six years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll say there's one thing that unites salespeople in legal and that's that media often portrays us very negatively.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you've seen the use car salesmen stereotype and you've seen the crooked lawyer stereotype, so how much of that is fiction and how much of that is actually existing in the field and does the bias have a lot of merit?

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think, on a ninety percent, ninety-five percent of lawyers are out there doing honorable, noble work.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They are serving clients.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They're helping clients achieve their objectives.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They're being those what we talk about being trusted advisors.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Really trying to proactively help clients solve their problems.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's really what ultimately sales is about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're trying to show how you can help them accomplish things that maybe they have some challenges getting there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's certainly in every industry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There are individual lawyers and you read about them that give industry a bad name.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are very successful too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so you just have to kind of know that that's out there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But my experience has been that it is really a profession of individuals who are very bright, very smart, very talented, really dedicated to serving the profession, the role of law, helping companies and individuals, you know, chat and navigate the legal system and the legal structure.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But as you said, you've got that in sales, you've got that in media.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Really any industry, you have the bad apples.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think when a bad apple is a lawyer, it hurts more.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They have a lot of power, you know?

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[SPEAKER_01]: They do.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They do have a lot of power and ends up being headlines front page news.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's unfortunate.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But the amount of, I see within our organization, because our firm is Baker Donaldson, a lot of what we do is Baker something like, I have a Baker Vision, twenty twenty eight right now, we have Baker Fit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Baker Well, talking about mental health and wellness, but we have Baker Cares, and we're giving back in our communities, and that's a big commitment of who we are as a firm, including free legal services, pro bono work, but also rolling up our sleeves, working with organizations trying to eradicate homelessness across our footprint, because there's been an increase of that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think lawyers are doing a lot of really great things, and a lot of times those don't necessarily get the headlines as the big massive failure of someone who has gone off the rails.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm probably gonna poke on that one more time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But before that, you said something very surprising to me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned how most lawyers don't embrace sales and it's something they actually resist.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And here I am being from the outside.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I always thought like, oh, lawyers must be natural salespeople.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because the way I imagine a lawyer is someone making their case in a courtroom and is like convincing the journey which feels like a very much of a sales activity.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's a huge gap between the realities and how people are in the legal field and where sales fits in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're exactly right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is really wise point about the art trying to sell a jury convinced a jury of your peers right about the rightness of your clients perspective.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think some of it is I was thinking about it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't know in other countries as a case, but in the United States, particularly the last twenty thirty years, you've had the proliferation of billboard advertising.

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[SPEAKER_01]: you know had a car wreck called you know one eight hundred lawyer or whatever and I think that and that is certainly an avenue of sales I mean I think gorilla marketing right you know all over the place and I think that's why a lot of you know more corporate law firms like we are I think people just naturally think well then I'm gonna run as far away from that kind of sales type idea and there's nothing wrong with the billboard and I don't mean to say that but I think that kind of just got this perspective of like

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[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's a profession and we're not going to do that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But as I said, when you think about sales, it's really relationship.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You have to build those relationships.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's certainly, I'm sure people call those ain't hundred numbers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's certainly working for them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But for us, it's really about building those relationships with those clients being present.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think I heard a statistic the other day that seventy-one percent of

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[SPEAKER_01]: companies have said they haven't seen their primary lawyer in the last three years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's not going to be a big Ronaldson because we said we want you to be out there with your clients walking, you know, don't go to their buildings, go to their factories, understand what they're doing, understanding their business off the clock, you know, not charging them for that, because that's going to help you become a better trusted advisor.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all about sales too, but it sails in that professional relationship setting.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's a similar thing I speak about in sales is like if a sale is done by a good salesperson typically in a BAB setting is a very boring thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't get headlines.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's the job is done proactively and you're listening to your customer and you know, we'll see the movie Wolf of Wall Street and then people think it's about that gab on the phone and then you guys have your better call sol, which is going to be your equivalent.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why I find that it's very hilarious.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'd be curious about you like you've

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're journey to become the CEO of this massive legal firm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, have you always had a passion for law?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what was the spark that got you into this industry?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Was it intentional, accidental?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of want to unpack that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The actual practice of law was, I really call it accidental.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of stumbled into it as how I say it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was a mass communication major in college.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I wanted to be radio and television, do broadcasting.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I can hear it in a voice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I made a good decision not to go that path.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I did anchor our campus news when I was a small liberal arts school when I was in college, but I had a media law course in my junior year that was talking about a lot of first amendment stuff and freedom of press and freedom of speech that fascinated me and I was interning into TV station and it wasn't as glamorous as I thought and I saw a poster for the entrance exam for law school so that well

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like this law stuff on that one class and I took it and I did pretty well so well maybe I'll go try this I mean literally kind of stumbled into it but then I came out started working with a boss who was really a tough boss but ultimately spoke a lot into me including about leadership that's what led to the really the book everybody leaves in that journey

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I really did come to this point where I loved helping clients solve problems.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just part of my DNA.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I even gravitated towards bankruptcy, corporate bankruptcy, my personal practice, or firm does a lot more than that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But that was my practice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because it was, people, you know, a bank has lent a lot of money to a company.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They're struggling financially.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's happy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The employees may not have gotten paid.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's not enough money.

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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we solve these problems?

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're in the healthcare industry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to take care of people and then assisted living facility.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't have enough money.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's a lot of pretty challenging issues that you got to get a lot of stakeholders together and come up with a solution.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of just fired me up.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I really did love building that team and trying to help solve those problems.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that was kind of the journey into the law.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I certainly had no vision of becoming a CEO of a law firm when I started out.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of just was that leadership bug that kept driving me a little bit to get me to that point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: First off, that's amazing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like you're really in the crust of your passion and something that you match your skills in your passion.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And this whole leadership aspect, I think is so needed to be discussed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so glad that you're bringing this literature forward.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, for a lot of people I've spoken to in business positions, have even called the current times being that we're at a crisis of leadership.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be curious if that's the sentiment you echo and that you see within your own workplace.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think within my workplace, I don't know, I can comment, you know, globally whatever, but in our organization, I think, I don't know that I would call it a crisis of leadership.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think people are really tired.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've heard somebody said, twenty twenty five is a year being exhausted.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think everyone is just a compounding effective.

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[SPEAKER_01]: you know the pandemic and then a lot of you know the this harmony around you know people different parties political parties things like that and so I think what I've really had the focus I think our focus on leadership has been first of all we can all get better as leaders every day we got to be intentional about those daily actions that can compound to help us get better in leading and influencing other and impacting others

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[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also about how to have that self-care too, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because of that idea that we're kind of exhausted, retired, we have to build in that mental health wellness plan as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think what I see is more, there's a hunger to want to get better as a leader, but recognizing that there's a lot that we're all balancing and how do we balance, you know, taking care of ourselves to then show up as our best selves for others.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of what I see in our organization.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've noticed in some of the organizations that I've worked with that, especially for the younger generation, it seems like there's a fear of taking ownership.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if that's just a spirit of the times, I don't know if we're not doing a good job at passing to Baton to the younger generation, like maybe it's always been this way, but that's what I've noticed, especially with the company's eye jumping.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I jump in because there's basically nobody that's come in and said, okay, let's bring everybody together, let's make some things move forward and being kind of a captain that rises.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's kind of being a little fearful and even the psychological safety aspect kind of seems to be a bit of an a distress.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I've noticed that and I'm just wondering, obviously in your firm, it sounds like there's some good foundations in place, but is this something you've noticed in organizations you work with?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I see it within our organization too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the struggle of me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly we're not perfect.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we do have individuals who are struggling, I think, with that and stepping up.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we have some glimmers of where you see the hope of that generation who really does get engaged.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We've done some training, some cohort kind of training around leadership development and next generation leaders and really trying to prepare them to be successful leaders into some of our practice group roles or office leader roles.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we have had people step up and become a part of that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I've seen it, but I think it's been harder to get by and sometimes because it is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of extra work and you don't necessarily see the dividends to return on investment of that time to build your leadership skills directly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It takes time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As you know, you have to build that over that muscle over years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think sometimes some colleagues shy away from that because they want it more instant gratification.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If I can build more hours, I'm going to get a bigger bonus, but rather than doing the stuff that's maybe not billable, but it's investing in my future.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's something that we try to talk about a lot, and we show

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[SPEAKER_01]: examples tell the stories of people who have done that and how it can pay off.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that you write the psychology of it and I don't claim to have all the answers about the, you know, five generations in the workplace and how that all plays out.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But we do see some of exactly what you're saying.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the instant gratification side probably is the biggest shift that I'm seeing because you know a lot of how you would perceive like if you would take on some leadership in responsibility I also think probably our reward system actually don't recognize the people that go the extra mile because it's probably harder to see the visibility and so it sounds like the opposite effect has been things that again we get talked about in the media such as like the quiet quitting movement that happened and so

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for those who are shying away from taking on their responsibility to drive their skills for like leadership development, there's obviously fruits at the end of that, you know, process.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the things people are missing out because they are not developing themselves into leaders?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'd want to be reminded strongly, and to, well, if I do take that, what is the fruit at the end?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I guess some of it, it's my own story and I mentioned the kind of reference about, you know, the whole journey of everybody leads.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I did have this boss who was a really gruff, you know, yelling type of boss.

15:21.457 --> 15:23.458
[SPEAKER_01]: You do a lot of tough love, but it wasn't a lot of love.

15:23.478 --> 15:24.639
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a lot of just tough, right?

15:24.999 --> 15:30.381
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had messed up and I was a young lawyer and I was very transactional and how I was approaching it.

15:30.421 --> 15:33.142
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe what we see in some of the, you know, young generation now.

15:33.882 --> 15:37.463
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a project, I did it, I turned it in, and that went on to the next project.

15:37.903 --> 15:44.865
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'd messed up a big project I was working on, I'd given it to someone else who then turned it into the boss, and it completely blew it.

15:45.185 --> 15:47.966
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's yelling at us in front of a lot of other lawyers on the phone.

15:47.986 --> 15:57.288
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next day I had drawn the short straw to take him to court, I'd pick him up at his house, and we're in the car, and I'm thinking I'm gonna get fired because I'd messed this up, we'd stayed up all night to get it fixed.

15:57.948 --> 16:06.312
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said he first wanted to apologize to me because he said I shouldn't have yelled at you in front of other people, but I was really angry because I see a lot of leadership in you.

16:06.432 --> 16:11.035
[SPEAKER_01]: I see a lot of ability for you to thrive in your career, but you've got to step up and own it.

16:11.095 --> 16:15.417
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to own everything, not rely on other people to fix it and think that's going to get done.

16:15.977 --> 16:19.158
[SPEAKER_01]: And that really led me on this journey of where I am today.

16:19.198 --> 16:24.140
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I'm talking to a young person, you know, I think it's that daily investment of us.

16:24.160 --> 16:25.921
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I'm going to be a leader, what does that mean?

16:25.961 --> 16:27.701
[SPEAKER_01]: And that led me to start reading some books.

16:27.821 --> 16:31.843
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, at that point, listen to cassettes, you know, books on tape, which now you can do audible.

16:31.863 --> 16:33.984
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's podcasts, there's YouTube.

16:34.344 --> 16:37.165
[SPEAKER_01]: And just even, you know, ten, fifteen minutes a day, a porn into yourself.

16:37.805 --> 16:47.067
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it may be that you're not trying to visualize what I can't wait ten years for that success, but even those ten or fifteen minutes today are going to compound and they're going to help you whatever the next part of your journey is.

16:47.707 --> 16:58.010
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think the fruit is you're just going to improve, you're going to have a bigger impact, you're going to have bigger influence on others, and that really should drive, I think it drives bigger motivation in what you're doing.

16:59.050 --> 17:16.325
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the hidden benefits as well is that since everybody else is maybe going towards a quite quitting type of aspect, if you decide to take responsibility and show leadership, I think there's more opportunities than ever, especially since there's a huge wave of the old guard that's going to be retiring pretty soon.

17:17.406 --> 17:20.989
[SPEAKER_00]: So like the moment you decide to be that person is going to do things differently.

17:21.329 --> 17:21.990
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there you go.

17:22.210 --> 17:23.591
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to kind of fall into your lap.

17:24.852 --> 17:26.273
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I have faith.

17:26.693 --> 17:35.339
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, like you said, there's enough media that's out there that can actually educate us in a really good way that I definitely see that, you know, people are coming out.

17:35.359 --> 17:37.021
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think the right ones are going to filter.

17:37.061 --> 17:41.123
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm crossing fingers and making sure that this is going towards that place.

17:41.504 --> 17:50.490
[SPEAKER_00]: Now in your book that's just about to come out, you know, a big misconception around leadership is that that's kind of the role you take on and not an action that you can take regardless of your position.

17:50.930 --> 17:55.592
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love you to a rabbi on that so that even if somebody's listening to this thing like, okay, well, is this even relevant to me?

17:56.172 --> 17:58.634
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in customer support or I'm just a salesperson.

17:58.674 --> 18:00.594
[SPEAKER_00]: Does the leadership even become relevant to me?

18:01.435 --> 18:03.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it absolutely is and that's the whole premise of this.

18:03.776 --> 18:05.417
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was the first year lawyer.

18:05.437 --> 18:06.157
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have a title.

18:06.197 --> 18:07.358
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have a big corner office.

18:07.458 --> 18:11.099
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have a lot of authority to do anything except show up and do my work.

18:11.519 --> 18:16.001
[SPEAKER_01]: But that was my boss talking into me that would know you are a leader because you do have influence.

18:16.041 --> 18:16.882
[SPEAKER_01]: You can impact

18:17.402 --> 18:41.862
[SPEAKER_01]: clients and then you can have an influence on those around you when I became CEO we did a town hall for the whole firm to kind of introduce me I knew a lot of people but not everyone and I challenged our people I said the way that we're gonna be successful in the future is that everyone look at your position whatever position that is you are a leader in that role you can be the best receptionist you can be the best legal support coordinator or you know as you said sales technician

18:42.542 --> 18:57.473
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if you really will work on being intentional about becoming the best you can at that role of doing things that maybe aren't in your job description but need to be done and stepping up and helping, then you get that reputation of being impact player that you go above and beyond and doing that.

18:57.833 --> 18:59.074
[SPEAKER_01]: And then doors open up.

18:59.234 --> 19:03.957
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the best leaders in our firm was someone when I met her, she was a receptionist in our Baltimore office.

19:04.797 --> 19:07.759
[SPEAKER_01]: But she didn't just answer the phone and send you to someone.

19:08.100 --> 19:09.420
[SPEAKER_01]: She was solving problems.

19:09.480 --> 19:17.526
[SPEAKER_01]: People would come into the lobby and they would need this for the need that or an attorney had a problem or a challenge or the break room wasn't fully stock.

19:18.026 --> 19:19.307
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't say, that's not my job.

19:19.927 --> 19:21.509
[SPEAKER_01]: She owned it and she fixed it.

19:21.569 --> 19:25.833
[SPEAKER_01]: And you just felt like she was someone who was on your side, she was trying to clear the path for you to succeed.

19:26.473 --> 19:32.479
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, you know, several years later, she's gotten a couple promotions where she's assistant office administrator of that entire office.

19:33.160 --> 19:34.942
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would say no matter where you are,

19:35.502 --> 19:40.489
[SPEAKER_01]: You do have the ability to influence others and to really grow those leadership skills.

19:40.789 --> 19:46.276
[SPEAKER_01]: And you may not have an ambition that you have promotion, but you do get that reputation of people can rely on you and trust you.

19:46.777 --> 19:47.798
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just seen it work for me.

19:48.239 --> 19:49.841
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it work for people around our firm.

19:50.282 --> 19:51.363
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've really believe in it.

19:52.458 --> 19:58.042
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's served me every time I've done anything to be honest, whether it's working in a company or with a client that I decide to take on.

19:58.582 --> 20:06.347
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder if there's something tangible people can, like, listen to this podcast, like, what's an action that I could take back to my work when I listened to this and I go back the next day?

20:06.667 --> 20:11.250
[SPEAKER_00]: What is something I could do differently and an attitude that I could change that would help me actually start nurturing these skills?

20:12.273 --> 20:14.736
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one thing is just to, you know, lift your head up a little bit.

20:14.756 --> 20:16.618
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes we're coming to work when we ever head down.

20:16.658 --> 20:19.881
[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing what is our job description, what is on our plate.

20:20.262 --> 20:25.768
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you step up, you know, look up a little bit and look around and see that there's things that aren't getting done or things that could get done better.

20:26.248 --> 20:30.273
[SPEAKER_01]: And then speaking up and saying, hey, I think this might be a better way to do this because I'm in the trenches.

20:30.333 --> 20:32.035
[SPEAKER_01]: I see that that's not really working as well.

20:32.575 --> 20:47.018
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe we can do this, or I see a need that's not getting fulfilled or a job that people aren't doing well and I can step in and help a little bit, not to be, you know, bossy, not to push someone else out of the way, but just something that needs to be done and stepping up and acting on that.

20:47.038 --> 20:50.138
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's just some easy ways to do that.

20:50.718 --> 20:58.900
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to forget his name, but there's a famous professor at the London School of Economics who talked about this idea that we all have a leadership aroma and how we show up every day.

20:59.540 --> 21:01.400
[SPEAKER_01]: He was originally from Calcutta in the end.

21:01.420 --> 21:10.742
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, during the summer, because you taught all year, he'd go back to Calcutta, and it's a hundred and three degrees, and the humidity is, you know, a hundred percent, and you're just lethargic.

21:10.762 --> 21:11.903
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't feel like doing anything.

21:11.923 --> 21:13.083
[SPEAKER_01]: You just want to lie around.

21:13.503 --> 21:23.305
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he compares that to the time he got to teach in Southern France for a semester, and he talked about Fountain Blue Forest, and you get to get this energy from walking through that in the spring.

21:23.765 --> 21:25.326
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, how do you want to show up every day?

21:25.346 --> 21:29.850
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to show up as Calcutta in the summer or fountain blue, you know, forest and spring?

21:30.370 --> 21:36.155
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think how you show up can have a big difference tomorrow when you're going to work, how you approach what you're doing.

21:36.335 --> 21:37.616
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean it's all going to be rosy.

21:37.676 --> 21:38.597
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be bad days.

21:38.677 --> 21:40.078
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be people that get on your nerves.

21:40.518 --> 21:49.445
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you can look at helping solve other people's problems or help clear the way for them to succeed, I think that's going to give you a bigger reputation and then probably open up more opportunities for you.

21:51.035 --> 22:02.158
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a, I don't know the source of the statistics, maybe it's just a whisper that I've heard around lawyers, which talks about some of the biggest struggles with mental health come from this profession.

22:02.978 --> 22:09.060
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, in sales, there's also such an emotional roller coaster that exists when you're in sales.

22:09.100 --> 22:11.580
[SPEAKER_00]: You can close a deal and you're feeling on the top of the world.

22:11.960 --> 22:17.662
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be on a bad downward spiral and it can affect yourself mentally as well.

22:18.342 --> 22:31.727
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be curious how you noticed in the sales profession and even in leadership professions that you've been holding, the role of mental health and emotional stability or intelligence quite frankly has played into helping you be more successful.

22:32.690 --> 22:41.640
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you exactly right, that in the legal profession, it's got higher statistics of folks who struggle with mental health issues, depression, alcohol, substance abuse.

22:42.060 --> 22:47.486
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of it is lawyers as a whole, you know, are more autonomous, they're more siloed.

22:47.846 --> 22:53.012
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't like to collaborate as much as what we talk a lot about collaboration because they're kind of protective of what they do.

22:53.592 --> 23:14.169
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's the same type of thing that you're talking about with sales because you can win a big case or you're on that emotional roller coaster you could lose a big case you can close a big deal and you can have your best year ever and then you roll around to January first and all the numbers on your dashboard go back to zero and now it's like what have you done for me lately which is the same thing in sales right you can't rely on hey that was a great year last year

23:14.749 --> 23:21.051
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we've really focused on is destigmatizing the fact that we've even talking about that.

23:21.071 --> 23:24.172
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very open that I talk to a therapist every five or six weeks.

23:24.853 --> 23:29.674
[SPEAKER_01]: And that just helps me have a safe space to talk through issues that I may be struggling with.

23:29.734 --> 23:37.177
[SPEAKER_01]: We have provided coaching for our colleagues, access to mental health professionals, for them and for their families.

23:37.377 --> 23:39.458
[SPEAKER_01]: And really just talking about it, providing other resources.

23:39.998 --> 23:51.191
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's something that I think talking about it, just digitizing it and recognizing we have to take care of ourselves to be able to serve our clients and help each other is something that I think has been a big step forward for us to really focus on that.

23:52.392 --> 23:57.338
[SPEAKER_00]: Well that's good and yeah for sure in sales as well this is something that we can apply on the same concepts here.

23:58.752 --> 24:05.715
[SPEAKER_00]: So Tim, one of the things that fascinates me when I heard of your introduction is that you work particularly with insolvency cases and bankruptcy cases.

24:05.875 --> 24:12.358
[SPEAKER_00]: And from a sales perspective, I can just imagine that there's a lot of sad, angry people.

24:12.918 --> 24:22.142
[SPEAKER_00]: And your job seems to be the one to be able to bring everybody on the same side and sell them into whatever's the best outcome given the really dire situation.

24:22.602 --> 24:28.805
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm wondering if you'd be able to share us one of the stories of how that usually comes together and how does that sales process look like?

24:29.785 --> 24:31.046
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's a great question.

24:31.146 --> 24:38.449
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the ones that I look back on fondly is one of my bigger victories was I represented a bank who was actually headquartered in Birmingham, Alabama.

24:38.489 --> 24:48.893
[SPEAKER_01]: It was at the time one of the fifteen largest banks in the country and they had a very large loan to a group of about six nursing homes in Texas and the parent company filed bankruptcy in Delaware.

24:49.473 --> 24:52.135
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're fighting over getting payments.

24:52.355 --> 24:58.718
[SPEAKER_01]: They were taking the position that the value of collateral had deteriorated and they didn't have to pay us all this money and it was a big loan for the bank.

24:58.778 --> 25:02.180
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not a bet the company type loan but it was big enough that it was going to impact them.

25:02.680 --> 25:09.024
[SPEAKER_01]: So we went to battle in court and against it was a big New York firm and thinking of who were these guys from Alabama.

25:09.064 --> 25:11.005
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we went up there and we won.

25:11.085 --> 25:13.666
[SPEAKER_01]: The judge agreed with us about the values of the property.

25:14.066 --> 25:16.408
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're high-fiving and then they appeal it.

25:17.428 --> 25:20.009
[SPEAKER_01]: and say, no, judge, you got this wrong.

25:20.350 --> 25:21.710
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, they filed a motion for rehearing.

25:21.730 --> 25:24.692
[SPEAKER_01]: They wanted to rehear certain aspects of her ruling.

25:25.212 --> 25:26.373
[SPEAKER_01]: So then we have to go up and court.

25:26.413 --> 25:28.494
[SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to defend her ruling was right.

25:29.074 --> 25:31.516
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, well, maybe I did get one part of that wrong.

25:31.636 --> 25:33.897
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she said it back to a, to have another trial.

25:34.437 --> 25:36.458
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was like, it was a win.

25:36.498 --> 25:38.639
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was like a challenge, it was obstacles.

25:38.759 --> 25:41.221
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she said, but I also want you to go to mediation.

25:41.241 --> 25:42.461
[SPEAKER_01]: I want you to try to solve this.

25:43.142 --> 25:45.423
[SPEAKER_01]: And our bank really needed to get this resolved.

25:45.883 --> 25:50.187
[SPEAKER_01]: So we went to a mediation when over a couple days and we agreed on the terms of a deal.

25:50.207 --> 25:54.510
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to get our bank paid and full over time and we all agreed to it.

25:54.610 --> 25:59.634
[SPEAKER_01]: But it had to be documented and closed by the end of the next quarter because I needed to get payments going again.

25:59.654 --> 26:04.518
[SPEAKER_01]: And that quarter happened to be when on eleven happened here in the United States.

26:04.918 --> 26:06.539
[SPEAKER_01]: And all the lawyers were up in New York.

26:06.599 --> 26:09.902
[SPEAKER_01]: Now they weren't impacted directly, but of course everyone in New York was impacted.

26:10.442 --> 26:17.848
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we had to get that close by like September thirty a for our bank not to have a big issue with their own you know investors.

26:18.429 --> 26:35.623
[SPEAKER_01]: But our colleagues on the other side in the york were of course not only of course you know really challenging trying to just keep life going so that was a pretty intense time in this dates a little bit but literally on you know five o'clock on September thirty it was a Friday the fact signatures come in so that our bank could book it and get it done.

26:36.063 --> 26:40.407
[SPEAKER_01]: But it just took a lot of persistence and it took perseverance, but it also took grace.

26:40.988 --> 26:44.231
[SPEAKER_01]: You know to understand that they weren't the laying things to try to delay it.

26:44.251 --> 26:46.092
[SPEAKER_01]: They were trying to deal with life, you know.

26:46.953 --> 26:57.403
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was a way that just I think we had built some empathy towards them so that then when we really had to get it done, we all did get it done through a really difficult challenging time where we had been litigating over it all.

26:57.943 --> 27:16.031
[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, as I said, the bank did get it paid in full, but that was an early win that really helped those cement, my career, because a lot of those bankers who were involved in that and saw the, I had the tenacity like they did, but also the tact to be able to come together with an agreement and have gone on to do a lot of other work and they've continued to send me work over time.

27:16.091 --> 27:17.371
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was an early victory.

27:18.392 --> 27:18.712
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

27:19.092 --> 27:21.793
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, how many lawyers are involved in this something of that size?

27:21.833 --> 27:24.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, are you there alone or does it whole team?

27:24.965 --> 27:31.747
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I did have another young lawyer with me, but then the New York firms, you know, the traditional, you know, like you do see like they're walking with eight or ten lawyers.

27:31.807 --> 27:32.647
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.

27:32.727 --> 27:36.048
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like you're like, you know, David versus Goliath, right?

27:36.128 --> 27:37.669
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why the victory was so big.

27:37.729 --> 27:41.090
[SPEAKER_01]: But we did have a couple of the people that were helping on it and getting it done.

27:42.190 --> 27:44.091
[SPEAKER_01]: It does sound like fun when you're saying that story.

27:44.925 --> 27:50.009
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting because I absolutely loved practicing law and I don't practice anymore.

27:50.049 --> 27:52.310
[SPEAKER_01]: This is basically a full-time job leading the firm.

27:52.731 --> 27:58.335
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was first approached about whether I wanted my name to be considered as the next year with a firm, I really had said no.

27:58.475 --> 28:02.998
[SPEAKER_01]: At first because I loved the team I worked with, I loved our clients, I loved what we were doing.

28:03.478 --> 28:16.751
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there was a little, something inside me over the next couple weeks said, well, but you know, you do love leadership and I love leading our team and I'd lead some other things within the firm and I thought, let me just put my name in the hat and see how this goes and I was fortunate to be selected.

28:16.771 --> 28:19.133
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, now I don't even want to go back to practice law.

28:19.233 --> 28:21.915
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I just love doing this and love trying to see people.

28:22.576 --> 28:43.693
[SPEAKER_01]: you know get the confidence that they can step up that they can play at that next level and to try to grow and thrive and young lawyers can have a pathway to try to grow whatever their career ambition is you know whether it's to stay here their whole career or just to build their muscles their legal muscles to then go you know serving house that just really gets me fired up now so yeah but I did love practicing for sure

28:44.885 --> 28:49.474
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, given you a new role, as you know, this is a big company in thousands of people in here, right?

28:49.534 --> 28:54.765
[SPEAKER_00]: So how much of your work actually has to do with developing talent versus the other activities you have to do?

28:55.665 --> 28:59.306
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so one of the things that's definitely on my plate is strategy of the firm.

28:59.346 --> 29:05.868
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mentioned that we have Baker Vision, twenty twenty eight, which is really all built around this idea of becoming a better trusted advisors to our clients.

29:05.908 --> 29:09.269
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's nothing new about that, but it is really, that's what the clients want.

29:09.289 --> 29:15.631
[SPEAKER_01]: They want someone who knows their business, knows their industry, and proactively can help them solve their problems and achieve their strategies.

29:16.291 --> 29:19.072
[SPEAKER_01]: And it'd be easy just to say, go be a trusted advisor.

29:19.512 --> 29:20.352
[SPEAKER_01]: God speed, you know.

29:20.852 --> 29:23.134
[SPEAKER_01]: But I said, we can't just tell you to go beat trusted advisors.

29:23.154 --> 29:25.036
[SPEAKER_01]: We got to build the training behind that.

29:25.436 --> 29:37.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I did that was something that was a part of the strategy was we had to come along and really expand what we call our baker talent and build out like a trusted advisor academy and build out that leadership academy for our younger lawyers I mentioned.

29:37.888 --> 29:45.795
[SPEAKER_01]: So the day to day is not as much me doing the training, but it is something that fell under me there as we launched this strategic vision.

29:46.355 --> 30:03.711
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do, I mean, certainly I have opportunities I do town halls a lot with the firm, I do have, you know, asked him anything and I'm able to do some coaching and training and certainly our leadership team gets together in person a couple of times a year and I'm doing some training for them, just trying to pour into them to help them better lead to their organizations.

30:03.791 --> 30:07.214
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do get jazzed up by doing that, but it's not as much in the day today.

30:07.494 --> 30:24.153
[SPEAKER_01]: the day today it's really more strategy growing the firm and really just the culture that falls to me and to try to make sure that I'm the keeper of the culture which includes getting around all twenty-four of our offices and walking the halls and making sure that I'm listening to people and figuring out how we can do better, how we can better share our clients.

30:24.253 --> 30:26.055
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really more what my day-to-day looks like.

30:27.116 --> 30:27.356
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

30:27.756 --> 30:29.637
[SPEAKER_00]: I noticed also your book has just come out.

30:29.958 --> 30:33.801
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a podcast of the same name being a public figure as a CEO.

30:33.841 --> 30:38.564
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that is really emerging the last like ten, twenty years for people that are CEOs?

30:38.584 --> 30:42.567
[SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes I imagine a CEO is kind of like in their office isolated.

30:42.627 --> 30:50.153
[SPEAKER_00]: But now it's like, well, you definitely seem to me like one of the healthy leadership models CEO models because you're putting yourself out there.

30:50.213 --> 30:51.494
[SPEAKER_00]: You're making yourself accessible.

30:51.534 --> 30:52.535
[SPEAKER_00]: You're connecting with the people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Is that a trend you're noticing across the industry or are we being proactive here and doing it better?

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[SPEAKER_01]: But maybe it's some of all that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because we've intentionally been in a growth mindset and really trying to add other lawyers to join us that have similar cultural values and also and how they serve clients.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I have heard from individuals like when I go visit them in an office, said, my parse at yo, I was here for ten years and I never saw them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'm not saying that that's everybody.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of other CEOs and certainly other organizations and other law firms who are out there proactively walking the halls.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But that's just been part of our culture and it's part of who I am actually some of my favorite times are when I'm out just visiting in an office.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Our COO and I are now in the middle of a

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[SPEAKER_01]: We call it our summer road trip and we're doing all twenty four offices over about a six or seven week period traveling together and it is exhausting because you're in the office all day you're walking the halls you're doing two presentations you're having a social event and then you get in the car and drive to the next office and then you get to the hotel and then you have to do the work that you weren't able to get done because you're there right but I am so fired up

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[SPEAKER_01]: by just interacting with their people, hearing how we can get better, because like I said, they're in the trenches, they're serving clients, there's obstacles that I don't really recognize that are occurring in delivering, you know, exceptional legal service, that then I hear, and they're okay, well, we can fix that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We can make that more efficient.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I really get jazzed by that, but I think it is rare, but it's something where I thrive in that, I think it makes us a better firm, not because it's me doing it, but it's because then we can connect better, particularly because we are spread out over twenty-five offices.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Tim, I'm happy to see that you're somebody that's bringing that to the forefront.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's going to be very healing to your industry.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's got to be very curious about legal again, knowing that there's some very good apples, at least perceived so far out of the industry.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's one question I kind of want to ask.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll frame it as this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll ask for a friend.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's going to be very useful, particularly since the majority of my listeners might be much smaller companies.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them may even like individual contractors.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I find that there's been an emergence in the legal field of a lot of self-serve options.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Tech companies offering you for a lot of things, whether it's like corporate setup, and you can get a lot of information yourself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like there's a certain point that you're like, oh, maybe I need to have like a legal counsel on my side.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I would assume your answer is slightly biased saying, everybody needs to have a legal counsel, but realistically, when it comes for an organization, at what point does legal become something you seriously need to consider having in your back pocket?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a great question.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're right, and particularly with the advances in technology, I mean, you can get on AI and have them write a contract for you, right, from pulling from different things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I do think, and we do a lot of work with emerging companies, and we have something we call Baker Bridge, as I said, it's Baker, but it's, you know, small organizations trying to bridge towards, you know, really getting their organization ramped up, where we do some really low-cost basic legal for services just to get them started.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think at the point where you're interacting and entering into contracts that have some significant issues involved, I think you need somebody just to look at that as a second eye rather than just relying on something that you pull off the internet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just to think, well, lawyers over lawyer, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because they come up with all the things that could go wrong.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But that's really born out of seeing that happen in the people that didn't actually document things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I would encourage it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a lot of different options and different countries that you can get some low cost or even pro bono corporate work where you can ask legal questions and try to get some of that basic legal advice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But as you're growing and as you're really entering into contracts where you're thinking about things like intellectual property rights, you know, things you've created,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sales approaches, sales techniques that you're trying to protect, trademark type issues.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think those are things you really probably need some expertise in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, there's some cost involved, but it's, I think when you reach that point where you're really ready to take that step to the next level, you probably need some counsel.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you have to get the Wall Street law firm that's going to charge you, I heard some law firms in our charts, three thousand dollars an hour, that's not us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But just find somebody that can give you some advice and walk you through something.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's when you're really starting to ramp up and you're starting to think about signing some pretty significant contracts.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You just want somebody to help you think through that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Tim, I'm so glad that I've connected with you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've recently stepped into a taking on a fractional CEO role within an organization and I think a lot of the things you're shared right now about the way that you lead, the way that you operate as CEO, are inspiring me that I think I'm following some good steps already and you're reassuring me that I think everybody leads the mindset around that is so strong in the fact that you're doing it at the size and impact of the organization you lead is truly inspiring and I'm feeling quite grateful to have connected.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't let you go before asking the question I ask everybody, which is, you are on the selling with love podcast.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I have to ask you what this selling with love mean to you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As I said, I love your approach.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think it's interesting.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I've shared this before, but my daughter got married a couple years ago and, you know, a lot of weddings have those verses, the love chapter about, you know, love is patient, love is kind.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I've really started thinking about that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's really what leadership's all about, about being patient and kind and not being rude and not being self-seeking.

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[SPEAKER_01]: not being easily angered and not holding on to grudges and leaderships about protecting, which is love is protects, hopes, trust, perseverance.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's really what leadership's all about, and it's really what love is all about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So to me, it's all about authentically showing up every day.

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[SPEAKER_01]: helping others and helping others solve their problems so that they can achieve their strategic goals, their ambitions, their career ambitions and really thriving.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I'm applaud what you're doing because you're really impacting the world by talking and thinking about sales as love and selling with love because I think that's going to differentiate you in the marketplace.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Tim, it was an absolute pleasure having this conversation with you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for sharing on the show.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody tuning in, we're going to put a link towards everybody leads so you can actually pick up a copy of that book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I have a feeling it's coming out today or tomorrow if you're listening to the release of this podcast and if you are looking for some legal counsel, I'm going to put a link to the firm as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely going to be sticking around and asking Tim a few questions myself to see if there's a possibility of collaboration because it does sound like they've put together an incredible firm that does good by people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm at least now curious to go and ask more.

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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're feeling the same and you're looking for legal, well, you now have a good reference with Tim's firm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Tim.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a pleasure.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a real joy, Jason.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I am your host, Jason Mark Campbell, and this is The Selling With Love Podcast.